Christian Ulbrich, Global CEO of JLL, stated that NYC mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani doesn't have a simple solution to restore the city's affordability.

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Transcript:

Kristin Stoller: Christian, if you could predict for me—is there one big, mega trend that you think will reshape the real estate industry in the next 20 years that no one’s talking about yet? What would you predict that would be?

Christian Ulbrich: You've previously inquired if there are any questions I've never been asked. This is undoubtedly one such query.

Diane Brady: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Leadership Next. The podcast about the people…

Stoller: …and trends…

Brady: …that are shaping the future of business. I’m Diane Brady.

Stoller: And I’m Kristin Stoller.

Brady: This week, we are speaking with Christian Ulbrich, who is the global CEO of JLL, a giant in the real estate sector. 

Stoller: Indeed, he joined us during a particularly eventful week in New York. We just experienced a mayoral election, with Zohran Mamdani securing the position. Naturally, we inquired about the housing crisis and affordability issues we're facing. Furthermore, it was their earnings reporting period, and he mentioned that third-quarter revenue saw a 10% increase.

Brady: This year has been quite successful for them, and given their status as a global entity, he possesses significant understanding of worldwide real estate trends and regulatory matters. This is crucial for him, not only for staffing but also for construction and other operations. He frequently discusses developments in regions such as India and Saudi Arabia. Therefore, if you're seeking an understanding of the global business environment, Christian is an excellent individual to consult.

Stoller: He also shared his thoughts on the talent wars and AI. We specifically inquired about his implementation of AI and its current functions. More insights from him will follow. Christian will rejoin us after the break. 

Brady: Jason Girzadas, CEO of Deloitte US and sponsor of this podcast, joins us now to talk about maximizing business transformation with AI agents.

Jason Girzadas: Great to see you, Diane. Nice to be here.

Brady: So, what should CEOs consider as they assess and prioritize use cases for AI agents?

Girzadas: This subject appears in nearly every CXO discussion I participate in. The approach should involve identifying high-impact areas that might not be the most glamorous or prominent functional areas, but are well-suited for automation and the application of this technology to achieve both efficiencies and innovation. Eventually, AI agents will also be integrated into customer-facing and growth-focused sectors. At Deloitte, we're employing it within our finance department to address routine tasks such as expense management and working capital management. We've observed other companies utilizing it in call centers and for automating software development processes.

Stoller: What are the key elements for successfully implementing AI agents?

Girzadas: It really boils down to having a clear purpose. Therefore, I believe this purposeful approach, examining each functional area systematically and in collaboration with both business and IT leaders across an organization, should be a core part of regular business planning. This includes allocating budget, establishing key performance indicators, and ensuring genuine responsibility for the tangible business results and effects stemming from agentic technologies.

Brady: Fascinating stuff. Thanks, Jason.

Stoller: Thank you.

Girzadas: Thank you.

Brady: Christian, I have to say that JLL is one of Coins2Day’ s Most Admired Companies. It’s also been on the Best Companies to Work For [list], but I think we should start by telling people exactly what JLL does. Can you tell us a little bit about the breadth of your business? And welcome. 

Ulbrich: It's a pleasure to be here. JLL functions as a worldwide real estate services firm, offering comprehensive support throughout the entire lifecycle of property ownership and occupancy.

Brady: Cradle to grave, sounds like you’re in the cemetery business too. So not that.

Ulbrich: Indeed, that's not precisely what's covered. However, it signifies that we begin with individuals who merely possess the concept of possibly developing property. We then guide them from that initial phase, which involves planning and site selection, through to construction assistance, project oversight, securing tenants, and subsequently, after the building's completion, potentially handling its sale, financing, operation, and ongoing management, including annual valuations. Essentially, we provide all necessary services for real estate ownership, particularly for professional property investors.

Brady: 80 countries, 100,000 people. How many people do you have now? 

Ulbrich: About 115,000 colleagues. 

Stoller: Wow. Now Christian, we are in New York City, just to give a sense of place here. And days after, we had a big election here. New Yorkers just elected a new mayor, Mayor Mamdani, who ran on this platform housing and this affordability crisis. So I just want to get your take on this. Are we in a crisis? What’s JLL’s role here? If so, how are you thinking about this?

Ulbrich: Well, the challenge that the affordability of living in the major cities of the world is a global one. It’s not unique to New York, but it’s clearly a big issue within New York, and it’s no surprise. A point people sometimes miss is that when you reside in a city such as New York, your thoughts turn to I’m an inhabitant of the city. It should be affordable to me. It’s my city. However, to be perfectly candid, New York functions as a worldwide hub. It’s a global capital to the world. When considering the number of visitors to New York and their experiences, which significantly benefit the city through substantial revenue and attention, it's important to acknowledge the cost: living here has become exceedingly expensive. And there is no easy answer to that question. Numerous cities globally are facing this challenge, actively seeking a solution. There is no easy answer to it. 

Brady: This whole conversation around affordability, writ large, does seem to be really essentially affecting the zeitgeist around how cities develop, what a good life looks like. I just talked to Steven Ross last night, and he said, Everybody’s going to move to West Palm Beach. But what are you seeing? What in terms of just the conversations around affordability? How is that impacting, if at all, some of the decision making that’s getting done? 

Stoller: And do you really pay attention to races like the Mamdani win here? 

Ulbrich: Well, I certainly pay attention to that specific situation, because New York is a super relevant market for us. And as I said, it’s the capital, or at least one of the capitals, of the world. So it’s relevant. I think I would start off with saying it’s a great example. Companies are part of a community, and the community of New Yorkers have decided that this outcome of the election is now there, which came as a surprise to many people. And my first reaction was, well, that’s great, democracy is alive. And the other story of that remarkable win, is that somebody who comes across as very charismatic, very authentic, can come from left field and win an election within a very short period of time. And we, as a company, as a very large employer, and specifically as an organization which is obviously working in the real estate area, can help here. And so we are very open, if our advice is asked to help the new mayor. What he can really do to improve the situation, as I alluded to earlier, it’s not an easy one. There is no silver bullet he can just shoot and then it’s done. This is really difficult. This is hard work. The whole world has tried to solve it, and nobody is there that he can just look at and say they did it and that’s what I copy and paste, because nobody has solved it completely. There are a few cities who had more success than others, and so we can help here with best practice. 

Brady: What other cities would you point to as being best in class? 

Ulbrich: Well as an outcome for the people living there, the city who has done the best job on it is Vienna. I still don’t like Vienna as an example, because they used it also as a political tool. There’s a massive amount of subsidized housing, communal housing in Vienna, and in the past, they used that housing to allocate those apartments to those people who were in favor of that political leadership and not to everybody. And so I don’t like the process, but as an outcome, they have a massive amount of affordable apartments in Vienna, which makes the city very livable also for people with low-and-medium-sized income. And at the end of the day, you don’t want to live in a city where only people can have apartments which are outrageously expensive. I mean, when you look to the city center of London, that is one of the challenges London has. That a lot of those apartments are just dark because they are apartment number three, number four, number five, of wealthy people, and you walk around there and everything is dark and it’s not lively anymore. We don’t want that either. And so it’s a tricky one. 

Brady: Do you have private sector employers talk about providing affordable housing? Because you go to other parts of the world and that is the norm. You’re building something, one of the things you build is affordable housing? Is that a conversation that’s coming more into the US now, as people are looking at building headquarters and realizing we have to house these people at the same time? 

Ulbrich: I don’t know about an example in the U.S., but that may be down to me. I don’t live here, so maybe my colleagues have an example for that. We have those examples. Obviously, it’s most obviously in the hotel space, where hotel operators, who operate hotels in very expensive locations, have to create affordable housing so that they have staff housing. But you see it now more and more, which is almost the irony when you go back to my home country, Germany. We had a lot of staff housing. Railway company employees were provided with their own apartment buildings. The post indicated they had their own apartment buildings. During the 1980s and 1990s, everything was privatized. As company housing is no longer available, the initial companies are now beginning to construct company housing once more, as they otherwise cannot draw individuals to Munich or Frankfurt, into the major urban centers. Consequently, they must construct employee housing once more. These are standard apartments, yet renting one is contingent upon being employed by the company. That idea is experiencing a resurgence. 

Brady: One of the things I love about the sector you’re in is that it is at this intersection of public policy and the private sector. I mean, we’ve talked in the past, Christian, about the role of government here in creating the conditions, mostly in commercial real estate in terms of what we’re talking about, but in general, let’s start with the U.S., because this is seen to be a moment right now where we’re having more deregulation. Is that impacting your ability to grow here? And then let’s move to the rest of the world.

Ulbrich: Regulation can indeed be beneficial, provided it supports your objectives. However, excessive regulation and bureaucracy can become obstacles, hindering progress. Large corporations such as JLL can navigate regulatory landscapes due to their extensive teams of experts who devise compliance strategies, thus favoring larger entities. Conversely, deregulation can be highly advantageous, assuming it doesn't lead to chaos. 

Stoller: Christian, I understand you've mentioned that many nations are struggling with affordability. In the U.S. Specifically, the housing shortage reached approximately 4.7 million units by 2025. Do you see any particularly successful strategies or collaborations for addressing this issue and expanding the availability of affordable housing?

Ulbrich: As I mentioned, there isn't a single solution. A multifaceted approach is necessary, which will ultimately benefit your local market over time. One key strategy involves substantial investment in public infrastructure, specifically public transportation, as this expands the area accessible for commuting. This is a significant hurdle, especially in the U.S., where public transit lags behind other nations. High-speed rail is notably absent. For instance, I once had an assistant who resided over 100 miles from our office but commuted via a high-speed train, completing the 100-mile journey in just 45 minutes. Considering New York...

Brady: … that would be a multi-day journey…

Ulbrich: …yes, that would result in a significantly larger service area, which would be beneficial. That's one possibility. Another approach is to offer the land at no cost to the developer, allowing them to benefit from rent control for utilizing the land freely, thereby enabling the creation of affordable spaces. This strategy is employed by numerous countries and cities to foster development. Direct financial aid is also an option. In essence, there are various instruments available. You could also simplify housing regulations to reduce construction costs. However, I could continue discussing this extensively, as we've explored this subject in Sydney, various European cities, and Asian metropolises. Every location is contending with this challenge. 

Brady: It's noteworthy because, as I believe I mentioned previously, you operate in 80 nations. The global political environment has changed, and so have the available opportunities. Could you describe, on a worldwide scale, the most unexpected areas where you're finding potential? Or are you dedicating more attention this year to markets that perhaps weren't considered a couple of years back? 

Ulbrich: Europe is facing significant difficulties, which is unfortunate given my European background. Consequently, much of the current activity has moved beyond Europe. The United States has maintained its position as the primary driver of global growth, particularly in terms of absolute figures, though not necessarily in percentage growth. While China continues to experience robust percentage growth, its overall growth has slowed year over year, with the real estate sector being particularly affected. China is still grappling with numerous challenges. 

Brady: They’ve had a bubble.

Ulbrich: Consequently, the U.S. Presents a highly appealing prospect, both in absolute and relative financial terms. And that appeal has increased presently. Apart from the regions I've just pointed out, you must explicitly state India. India's progress is remarkably, remarkably strong. Over the past decade, significant investments have been made in infrastructure. It's incredible. Every visit reveals significant shifts, with the nation now emerging as a truly global competitor, capable of assuming roles previously held by China, such as manufacturing. Each year, numerous skilled individuals complete their college education, particularly in fields related to technology. It’s really impressive the type of talent we are getting. Currently, India holds the second-largest workforce, surpassing China, which previously held that position, and trailing only the U.S. 

Stoller: This reminds me of the Coins2Day Global Forum in Riyadh, which you were at with us, Christian. Diane, you had a great conversation on stage.

Brady: I’ve got his quote here, and I love this one: other countries have learned to move along much faster and more decisively, and that’s what we’re seeing when you look at growth rates in the world. I’m curious to know, really drilling down on how some of the political decisions and the speed with which these economies are moving, what can we learn from that? You mentioned India, for example, I used to live in India. That used to be one of the worst places to do business. You know, you want to put up a bridge and 75 voices and four years later you’re still talking about it. What do you see changing in terms of where you think now we can learn from the way that economy is conducting itself. 

Ulbrich: Yeah, India is especially a great example, because it is a democracy. The challenge is that the concept of democracy comes at the price of being slow. And so when we look at the most successful development stories, whether it is China, which has been obviously a remarkable success story of development, but also when we look at the Middle East, UAE, or you just mentioned Saudi, also very impressive development stories, but obviously in a different legal environment where it’s much easier to just say this is needed and bam, it’s done. Versus when you are in a democracy, you are faced with lots of people with different opinions. They have the opportunity to use courts to delay processes, and there are just different roles. India is an interesting one, as you said. They are coming from a world where you could get nothing done because of all the different states and all the different rules. And what has happened, especially over the last 10 years, [is] that they were able to streamline. They realized, if we continue the way we did, we can’t get our country into a position where we can provide decent lifestyles to our vastly growing population. And so they have done their homework. It’s not perfect, but it’s impressive, very impressive. And so I think that is what, especially the European leaders, have to kind of really digest. That the way they were able to operate for a very long time will not keep Europe successful. Europe is falling consistently behind, so they have to speed up now. 

Stoller: Are there any strategies you think Western countries should be using to emulate these other ones that you were saying are doing well? 

Ulbrich: Well, you know, I shouldn’t be in a position to give advice. 

Brady: If I were running this country, here’s what I would do. 

Stoller: You’re very knowledgeable.

Ulbrich: Well, but you know, it’s always easier to talk from the sideline than to execute yourself. But the challenge, I think, is that they find it difficult to convey the facts and the truths to their voters, because they know they are facing an election very shortly. Because, you know, in most countries, it’s at least every four years, and you hardly get anything done within those four years. So very often, the people who are actually telling the truth, which is sometimes unpleasant, they will be voted out for giving that. But I think people have moved on. I mean, people have a sense of what works and what doesn’t work. And I think you can be more transparent and say, Listen, whatever the retirement plans of Europe, where you have these public retirement plans, they are totally underfunded, because life expectancy is much longer. 

Brady: Spend more time retired than working.

Ulbrich: Exactly. So you have to work longer, full stop. That is a message which I think everybody understands. It’s very unpopular, but I think you can give that message, and this is just one example of many where you just have to be transparent to the people and tell them those are the facts. And listen, we can do it like this or like that, but if we do it like this, it will end up badly, and if we do it like that, we stay competitive. So what shall we do? 

Brady: One of the things that surprises me is we still debate a lot about remote work, hybrid work, going to the office. Obviously that has a huge impact on commercial real estate. What are you seeing? What is it that gets people to want to go into the office? Because it feels like we have to change the experience now of the workplace. Are you thinking about that in terms of even just this next generation? Because it’s still a hot debate in the U.S. And everywhere I go, Where should our people work? How should they work? 

Ulbrich: Well, I would say we have been thinking about that for a very long time. It didn’t take COVID to get us to that place. We were always arguing that you have to create really inspiring environments to get the best out of your people. Now, frankly, we do that for a living, and so it’s no surprise that we told that to our clients. But I think, and that’s why I was not concerned at all when during COVID, in the aftermath of COVID, you had all these headlines, the office is dead, and why we don’t need any more offices, and I was absolutely convinced that people will get back into the office. That was just a trend. It was a popular trend, but at the end of the day, we all enjoy being surrounded by people who we like to work with, who are inspiring us, where we can learn from. Especially when you are younger in your career, if you don’t have the opportunity to sit next to somebody who is more experienced, from whom do you want to learn? Essentially, my entire professional journey began because I had the opportunity to be seated beside my supervisor, which was during an era when traditional telephones were common, and he'd have his handset. A second receiver was present. When conversing with a client, he'd subtly indicate the second receiver for your eavesdropping. That's the way I learned to communicate with clients and how to market products to them. That couldn't have occurred if I'd remained home, with him also being at home. This is why individuals must collaborate on their tasks, and this doesn't stem from a deficiency in adaptability. If you need to take a day off for any reason, such as a doctor's appointment or a sick pet, then you should stay home for that day. However, it doesn't negate the fact that coming to an office is the optimal method for fostering productivity and making progress. 

Stoller: Are you still seeing these high office vacancies? Or what does the landscape look like right now for you? 

Ulbrich: You'll observe that the premier structures—and this holds for every global city—are nearly fully occupied. There's hardly any available space. Rents are experiencing a significant increase in prime properties, with a notable shortage of such buildings available. Regarding the development pipeline, particularly in the U.S., groundbreaking for office buildings has reached its lowest point since data collection began. Our JLL teams are examining subsequent buildings to determine if upgrades can be made to meet the desires of clients who couldn't secure a premier property and consequently settled for a slightly lesser option. And that's essentially the direction things are heading. Numerous buildings remain unoccupied. These might be very old structures situated in prime spots, yet frequently they're found in less desirable areas where businesses wouldn't typically choose to set up their offices. 

Stoller: I’m curious what your clients or customers are asking for, because I went to the new JPMorgan building earlier this year. 

Brady: It’s controversial, not everybody loves it but Kristin loves it.

Stoller: I didn’t get to go inside because it was still being constructed, but they’ve got a pub. They’ve got all these workout studios. Are clients asking you, hey, I need, like, all these amenities.

Ulbrich: This is clearly at the extreme edge of things. Such buildings are uncommon. It's no wonder this structure is located in New York. Incidentally, this reinforces my initial point: New York is the global capital, and it's fitting for such edifices to be situated in the world's capital. Building a similar structure elsewhere, without intending disrespect, would be unsuitable for cities like Dallas or, I'd venture to say, Los Angeles…

Brady: …too over the top?

Ulbrich: It's a bit much. This is a structure for what is arguably the world's most successful bank, located in its most significant city, and they're entitled to a headquarters of this caliber. However, its placement is crucial. It must also integrate with the surrounding area. We shouldn't construct isolated structures that make people feel estranged by their design. I've observed this phenomenon when large corporations in mid-sized cities erect imposing headquarters, which then become the sole edifice of that magnitude in the locale, prompting one to question, really?, 

Brady: One of the things that I always enjoyed talking to you about is talent, because you have 115,000 people, you hire worldwide. That’s also an area, of course, where policy can come into play. You mentioned Europe, how is it hiring people in Europe? Now, when you look around the world, leaders are fascinated with the trends in talent. Sometimes we stereotype Gen Z, millennials. What are you seeing, how are you hiring? 

Ulbrich: I don’t think there’s a massive difference with regards to the type of talent we are hiring around the world. Young people around the world tend to share the same ambitions. They have all, when they come to us, usually pretty good education, and they have the ambition to work in a global, super professional environment. Many of them are hoping that one day they can move to another country within our organization. So that’s pretty much the same all across the world. The big difference is—I was just recently in our Munich office, and we had to do quite a bit of restructuring in Germany, because Germany is still pretty much in a recession, more or less for a couple of years, and the economy is still smaller than it was in 2019 so nothing much has happened over so many years. And so people are concerned. And they said to me, Christian, when will that stop? And I said, guys, those are the numbers. I literally put the numbers up on my iPad, and I showed them, those are the numbers. We organize ourselves in the 10 largest countries. We call them the J10. Germany is one of them. And I said, Listen, guys, you are within the J10 countries, and this is how you look. Do you feel good about it? And they said, No, not really. And so what can we do about it? And I said, collaborate. One JLL, work together. See how you can come to the clients and win more business from them, and convince them that we are making them more successful every day, and then your numbers will grow, and then it will become better for you. I mean, it goes back to what we said earlier. Be transparent with people. Treat them as grown ups. 

Brady: I’m talking to two German citizens here. One soon-to-be German citizen. You grew up in Hamburg. I love the anecdote earlier about listening in on the phone, but tell us a little bit more about what you think were some of the formative moments for you as a leader that you draw on. Because I think a lot of people love to hear, just, what can we learn from your background?

Stoller: Built a career in Germany, now leading a U.S.-headquartered global business. I think that’s interesting. 

Ulbrich: Yeah, listen, I grew up in a family where my parents were running their own business, their own company. They were timber merchants, so they were importing timber from around the world, and then selling it to the furniture industry. And so our life was the company. So literally, every Saturday after breakfast, we as a family would drive to the company, and then my parents would do work, and I was either playing…

Brady: Playing amid the timber? 

Ulbrich: Playing with timber, or doing whatever they used to do. They had all of these forklifts in the company. So my older brother was allowed to drive the forklift already at a very early age, and then I was sitting next to him, and we were driving around the warehouses. So that was how I grew up. And then when I was getting older, I was starting to do little work there and got a little bit of additional pocket mone.y But what it created was a high sense of responsibility. I realized very early on, this is what your parents are doing. They are employees, and those employees are dependent that your father and your mother are taking the right decisions so that it continues to go well. And so this sense of responsibility is probably what I learned right at very early ages, and it’s probably what still drives me today. 

Stoller: What would you say was your hardest moment as CEO? 

Ulbrich: The hardest moment as CEO… at a very young age, I became CEO of a small bank in Germany and it was a restructuring story. They were looking for somebody who was willing to take that on. And so I restructured the bank and brought it back into profitability, and then the owners came to me and said, Listen, we want to cash in. We sell that bank now. And so I was working on their behalf to identify a buyer, and then I was surprised that they had lined up another buyer, which, from my perspective, wasn’t the type of buyer who should, first of all, be owning that bank, and certainly not somebody I wanted to work for. And so I resigned the day they took ownership of that bank, and that was a really tough moment. Because, you know, I was very young when I became CEO there…

Brady: Did you have something else to go to? Or did you just, Honey, I’m home. I just quit. 

Ulbrich: Absolutely nothing to go to. It caught me completely by surprise. And so that was a really, really difficult one. And I was kind of struggling a little bit, but at the end of the day, I was clear that I didn’t want to work for them and that I should keep my personal values higher than this very lucrative contract as a CEO of a bank.

Stoller:  I think you’re the second CEO of the season who’s told us they resigned, so…

Brady: Yeah, you’ve got more hutzpah than me on that front, if I feel I’m on the precipice of financial doom I don’t think I could say I quit. But you had good moral reasons to quit. I’d be remiss not to ask about AI on a couple of fronts. Obviously, how it’s transforming your business. But there is a lot of conversation as well around how AI is going to be impacting, again, talent businesses. Let’s start with how you see AI playing out in your company? 

Ulbrich: Well within JLL, it obviously is already playing a very prominent role, and it will only become more prominent. Because at the very end, if you want to simplify it down to the basics, we are in the data business. We are collecting massive amounts of data, we analyze that data, and then we turn that data into valuable advice for our clients. This is our function. When faced with enormous datasets, AI proves advantageous. The processes we undertake, such as leasing, selling, or financing a building, are often perceived as highly complex, which is why our services are essential. Ultimately, it's not about traveling to Mars and the Moon. There's considerable potential to leverage AI for process simplification, data utilization, and productivity enhancement. This is therefore crucial for us. 

Stoller: I'm about to utter the word that will likely elicit groans, and that's ROI. I've had numerous discussions with executives regarding the ROI. Are you experiencing any concrete value or returns at this point, or is it primarily about establishing the groundwork for the future? 

Ulbrich: We're already experiencing substantial benefits, primarily in terms of enhanced productivity. There are two major applications: boosting output or creating new income streams. Currently, our focus remains largely on improving productivity. While we're starting to see initial products and agents that generate revenue, this is still in its early stages, so the emphasis is on productivity gains. However, within a company of 115,000 employees, numerous areas exist where productivity can be enhanced. 

Brady I'd like to inquire about sustainability, given your extensive involvement in that area. Considering the evolving public sentiment regarding environmental impact and related discussions, has this shift influenced your work, or are you encountering novel obstacles in this domain? 

Ulbrich: That was a German word, Zeitgeist. 

Stoller: She threw that in just for you.

Brady: Germany has brought so much to my life, including the word Zetigeist.

Ulbrich: You're making me feel quite welcome. It's incredibly important to us, a core part of our mission: shaping the future of real estate for a better world, and we genuinely embody this. We've established our own science-based targets. We were among the initial companies recognized for setting science-based targets to decrease our carbon footprint, and we're significantly advanced in this endeavor. Our clients are increasingly progressing on this path because it benefits their businesses. 

Brady: They just don’t talk about it. 

Ulbrich: They just don’t talk about it that much anymore. And that's acceptable. You don't need to mention it or boast about it. Perhaps that was part of the problem, that individuals boasted about it before taking action, and now they're acting without much fanfare. Ultimately, our primary focus is on business operations. And business necessitates profitability, and many of our client services aimed at enhancing their sustainability will ultimately lead to cost savings, increased profits, enhanced talent acquisition, improved client attraction, and greater brand popularity. That journey offers numerous values and benefits, which is precisely their purpose. And the things that don't make sense, they simply don't. However, up to this point, we remain quite at ease. Our clients' scope one and two emissions are considered our scope three, and given our commitment to net zero, we must also reduce our scope three emissions. So we are watching very carefully what our clients are doing on their emissions and on their journey. And so far, I’m still comfortable with our own target. 

Stoller: Good. Now, as we come to, sadly, the end of our time here, I want to look more forward-future thinking. So Christian, if you could predict for me—is there one big, mega trend that you think will reshape the real estate industry in the next 20 years that no one’s talking about yet? What would you predict that would be?

Ulbrich: You've previously inquired if there are any questions I've never been asked. This is undoubtedly one such question. 

Stoller: Yes, then I’ve done my job.

Ulbrich: A significant trend, two decades from now… I wouldn't necessarily label it a mega trend, but structures will exist that quantify all measurable aspects. Going forward, we start to see that already, you enter a building, and your camera will detect you. The building will know where you are, what you are using, where you spend your time. Everything will be measured. And that can be scary. And there are elements if you don’t keep the privacy rules, which are a bit scary. But on the other hand, it is very beneficial, because we will be able to operate those buildings at a much lower cost level. We will only use the heating, the air conditioning where we need to use it. We will only clean where we need to clean. I mean, the whole operations of buildings will become so much more efficient going forward. So a building needs to be operated in the future, much more than it has ever been done before. 

Brady: We have facial recognition coming in here. I have to say, it sounds more delightful than Orwellian, to your point. Do you think it’s going to be more delightful for us 20 years from now based on this technology? Or do you worry it’ll be scarier? 

Ulbrich: Well, I think we will get used to it. There are so many things which are scary when you are first coming to it, and then you get used to the benefits of those developments, and then you don’t think about the negatives anymore. The only trouble with facial recognition I have, that I made once, a very big mistake, I had to extend my passport, and I didn’t want to take a new picture, and so I just took the old picture. Now my passport picture is quite old, and when I’m using…

Brady: …you look fantastic, I’m not gonna ask your age…

Ulbrich: …to come to the US I have now kind of a mismatch between my passport and how I look, and they always call me out, and say, is that really you? And so I’m regretting that I didn’t take a newer picture for my passport. 

Stoller: Those are the important lessons.

Brady: That is a life lesson we’re going to end on right there. 

Stoller: Thank you, Christian.

Brady: Thank you very much.

Ulbrich: Thank you for having me. 

Brady: Leadership Next is produced and edited by Hélène Estèves.

Stoller: Our executive producer is Lydia Randall.

Brady: Our head of video is Adam Banicki.

Stoller: Our theme is by Jason Snell.

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